Showing posts with label ourchangingclimate. Show all posts
Showing posts with label ourchangingclimate. Show all posts

Saturday, August 23, 2014

Falsify This - what contrarians ignore (#5)

This will probably be my last installment looking at my pal K's line of reasoning over at OurChangingClimate's "Is Climate Science falsifiable" comments section.  It's been interesting I learned a few things, in particular today becoming acquainted with Mariano Artigas' examination of Popperian philosophy on fallibilism.  Something that seems much misrepresented on the internet and ties right into the neat little 'arguments' K was presenting. 

 He writes:

"citizenschallenge – the trick is that trivial falsifications do not automatically add up to a falsifiable hypothesis.  
"You need to have a necessary and sufficient falsifiable hypothesis statement. 

1) a list of observations, which if observed, mean your hypothesis is false;
2) a logical argument that the lack of those falsifications means that your hypothesis must be favored over all others (including the null).

The null hypothesis, is of course, natural climate change explains all observed climate change."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"The null hypothesis, is of course, natural climate change explains all observed climate change."

To begin with this "null hypothesis" doesn't make any sense because if we look at the situation from a geophysical perspective there is nothing unnatural about today's increasing greenhouse gas levels causing our atmosphere's insulation ability to increase, in turn causing our planet to warm.

It is only the source, human burning of fossil fuels, that is unique in the long varied history of our planet. 

It would be interesting if K or any other science contrarian can suggest a more meaningful null hypothesis, since his is broken?
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

"1) a list of observations, which if observed, mean your hypothesis is false;" 

Wednesday, August 20, 2014

Examining denialist dodges #4 K gets down to brass tacks

{edited Wednesday morning}
Slowly wrapping up my virtual dialogue with K at the OurChangingClimate "Is Climate Science Falsifiable" thread, he has drifted a long way from discussing how falsifiability in science works, instead preferring to dodge my questions with diversions into politics, so I figure it's a good excuse to consider the Libertarian Mind in a bit more depth by going through his comment and offering my responses.   As mentioned previous this exercise offers interesting insights into the workings of the contrarian mind and might come in helpful for some.

==================

krischel Says: 
August 18, 2014 at 01:27
@citizenschallenge: You are a natural climate change denier :)

What's that mean pray tell? How can anyone deny natural climate change? 

It appears K hasn't figured out that it's impossible to grasp Manmade Global Warming without first understanding the science of "natural climate change." 

A reminder, K never did respond to my explanation that his "null hypothesis" doesn't make sense, since there's nothing "unnatural" about increased CO2 levels increasing our planet's insulation, nor that humans increasing GHGs will increase global average temperatures.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

K writes
CC: “You dismiss the guy’s academic record”
K: "Because Mann’s academic record doesn’t make up for his lies and fraud."

~ ~ ~ 
{WHAT LIES AND FRAUD?}
I've addressed this echo-chamber fantasy regarding Mann's alleged misdeeds in essay  #3 of this series.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

CC: “Your McIntyre doesn’t understand the science”
K:  "On the contrary, he’s incredibly well educated, and shows his work. Mann hides it behind lawsuits :)" 

~ ~ ~
How's being incredibly educated in mining, and investment strategies qualify him to judge climate science?

Also, what the lawsuit want's isn't Mann's work which is readily available for any serious researcher to examine {don't believe it, click here} - the lawsuit basically want's every piece of paper Mann ever wrote on.  It's a political witch hunt nothing more.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ 

Sunday, August 17, 2014

Examining denialist dodges, re Dr Mann #3

In for a nickel, in for a dollar, and I may as well share K's response to my previous post since he's getting a bit heated and demonstrating another typical ploy which affords me another opportunity to examine the anatomy of avoidance.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ 

K Responds: 
August 17, 2014 at 19:19
@citizenschallenge: “Hmmm, my emotional parody blog?”
~ ~ ~
K : Yes, your emotional parody blog. Unable to confront the rational discourse of people who disagree with you, you’ve created a site dedicated to emotionally lashing out at them. Labeling your opponents “denialists”, you dehumanize them at the very start, unable to imagine anything but pure evil intent on their part.

{de·ni·al, noun:  a) the action of declaring something to be untrue.  b) a statement that something is not true.}

{No buddy, I'm using the term as a descriptive for your attitude of rejecting authoritative scientific information.  

As for "inability to conduct a rational discourse", what about your demonstrated reliance and complete faith in WUWT's storylines and Steve the hostile armchair statistician, {who's work and claims have been examined and rejected, with cause, by a number of actual experts in various fields.} ?

Why isn't any of that good enough for you K?  Instead you reject their informed and considered judgements ... how do you justify that? 

And why shouldn't I call that Climate Science Denial?  Please explain.}

Examining denialist dodges, this time re Dr Mann #2

[new comments added Sunday 8/17 evening]

Here's an update on yesterday's response from my virtual dialogue pal Krischel over at the OurChangingClimate thread "Is Climate Science Falsifiable" - unfortunately I'm stuck working outside all day, so once again don't have the time to compose the post I'd really like to, so here's a quickie instead.

It is intended for folks interested in peaking into the workings of your typical climate science denialist's mind.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

k Says: 
August 16, 2014 at 19:27
@citizenschallenge: “Why not try learning from a wider source pool than WUWT and the Great White Auditor.”

K says: Racist and dodging the issue. Good job! :)
~ ~ ~ 
So sorry, an attempt at levity ... read great white hope ... great corporate free marketeers hope ... 
or perhaps I was thinking of the color of America's right-wing heavy weights.

Either way racism isn't a part of it, but then my intentions won't stop your gross misrepresentations.  ;-}
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ 

k Says:
CC says: “in deep time those climate fluctuations were initiated by the so-called Milankovitch cycles”

K asks: Tell me, what does a milankovich model predict the global average temperature should be next year? When does a milankovich model predict the next trigger that overwhelms CO2’s greenhouse effect, and drives us into an ice age, while CO2 still increases?
Be specific :)
~ ~ ~ 
CC responds: Sure I'll be specific about where you can start learning about this:

Friday, August 15, 2014

Examining denialist dodges, this time re Dr Mann (#1)

Here's another installment examining the nonsense denialists try to shove down our throats.  Still focusing on the discussion at OurChangingClimate and krischel's gems.   If you are interested in learning about the dishonest tactics of engagement contrarians depend on, please read on.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ 
August 16, 2014 at 00:32
krischel Says (August 15, 2014 at 22:15):
"Exactly how do you justify hiding a divergence between proxy data and observations? In your own words, please :)"
~ ~ ~

Where did Mann do that? The divergence problem was an area of active study and no one was hiding anything.

Can you come up with a source independent of McIntyre's creative reconstruction ?
krischel responds: 
August 16, 2014 at 01:09
@citizenschallenge: “Care to define odd and novel?”
Sure. The idea that a factor that *lags* temperature change must be the *cause* of temperature change, much less a factor that is measured in parts per million, could overwhelm any other factors is odd and novel :)
~ ~ ~
K's dodge in this case is that he ignores the known fact that in deep time those climate fluctuations were initiated by the so-called Milankovitch cycles which are regular changes in our planet's orbit and rotation.  
These periods of ancient warming were initiated by Earth receiving more of the sun's energy with CO2's impact kicking in later.  The facts surrounding how this process operates has been studied and defined with increasing resolution for the past hundred years.
Misrepresenting such simple facts is another sign of the dishonest nature of your typical contrarian.

necessary and sufficient falsifiable hypothesis statements

I finally got around to revisiting the "Climate Science Falsifiability" discussion at OurChangingClimate.wordpress.com
to see where it leads.  It's pretty wild and there's no keeping up with K so I thought I'd take it from the top to review where this discussion began.

To start with some quotes from Hans Custers' article:
A very, ehhrmm… interesting piece on  
Variable Variability, Victor Venema’s blog: Interesting what the interesting Judith Curry finds interesting. And I don’t mean interesting in a rhetoric, suggestive way; I mean it is a well-written and well-reasoned article, worth reading.  
Victor writes about the meme regularly used by the anti climate science campaign, often supported by some straw man arguments, that the science of human impacts on climate would not be falsifiable. He shows it’s nonsense, by giving some examples of how it could be falsified. Or, more likely, already would have been falsified, if the science would be wrong. Victor’s post inspired me to think of more options to falsify generally accepted viewpoints in climate science. If there are any ‘climate change skeptics’ who want to contribute to real science, they might see this as a challenge. Maybe they can come up with a research proposal, based on one of the options for falsification. Like proper scientists would do. 
First, a few more things about falsifiability in general. Bart wrote a concise post about the subject four years ago, explaining that a bird in the sky does not disprove gravity. What looks like a refutation at first, might on second thoughts be based on partial or total misunderstanding of the hypothesis. Natural climate forcings and variations do not exclude human impacts. Therefore, the existence of these natural factors in itself, cannot falsify anthropogenic climate change. A real skeptic is cautious about both scientific evidence and refutations. 
{...}

One more thing. The philosophical principle of falsifiability and the feasibility of tests for it are two different subjects. ... Philosophy of science does not set a time frame for hypotheses testing. The issues involved in the testing of hypotheses are the story of almost every scientist’s life. They’re not sitting back, thinking of new and brilliant ideas, most of the time. Instead, they are busy digging for data, messing with measuring equipment, or evaluating errors in experiments. For climate scientists, one of the major issues is the pace at which they can get new information: one year of data every year. And one year of data is not a lot for climate research. There are no test tube planets for climate experiments. ..."

That’s it for falsifiability in general. Here are the 10 way to disprove the human impact on climate:

1. A drop in global temperatures for some period of time to the level of 50 years ago or longer, without a clear cause

2. A drop in global sea level for some period of time

3. A strong rise or decline in the atmospheric CO2 level

4. The discovery that climate forcings in the past were much larger, or temperature changes much smaller, than science thinks

5. Warming of the stratosphere

6. Major errors in equipment in satellites, measuring outgoing longwave radiation

7. Evidence of a substantial fall of relative humidity with rising temperature

8. A source of heat in the climate system that we do not know yet

9. A fundamental flaw in the scientific understanding of radiation physics or thermodynamics

10. CO2 molecules appear to behave differently in the wild, than they do in a laboratory


Friday, August 1, 2014

Another climate science skeptic dodges another challenge

More interesting times with climate science denialists over at 

  1. citizenschallenge Says:
    krischel writes, August 1, 2014 at 07:48:
    If you can still defend the fraud Michael Mann with a straight face, then obviously you’re immune to any critique of your chosen saviors :)
    ~ ~ ~
    Write up your list of specific charges defining Dr. Mann’s alleged fraud. Let’s take a closer look at them.
    {not surprisingly K never offered any follow up with specifics re Dr. Mann, just as he never supplied the list of stolen emails he claims prove fraud.  
    Typical contrarian behavior}

Null Hypothesis101 #3 drifting off topic

{last edit evening 8/5/14, as usual, damn those typos.}

Here's the latest installment in my dialogue with K over at the "Climate Science Falsifiability" comments thread at OurChangingClimate, though he's drifted quite far from his alleged interest in examining his take on the "null hypothesis" and it's use in climate science.  

It seems to be the one thing I can depend on when dialoguing with such characters, they will try every trick in the book to distract the attention away from the question at hand and waste our time and available space with off-track extraneous nonsense.

Skim through this to see how it works.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

July 31, 2014 at 19:56

Krischel claims that ” In the case of AGW, our null hypothesis is natural climate change”.

K still hasn't faced the fact that there is nothing “unnatural” about current climate change. Huge increases of CO2 has always warmed our planet!

CO2 has always had it’s insulating properties, nothing has changed about those physics!
Today’s “climate change” is a natural result of greatly enhanced greenhouse gas concentrations.

Wednesday, July 23, 2014

Null Hypothesis101 #2 the response

{I forgot about this one from a couple days ago that I didn't get to post.}

A quick update from a coffee shop in Corrales, NM
Krischel responded at OurChangingClimate with the following that seems to totally evade the simple questions about "null hypothesis" I'd asked about.

krischel Says:  July 21, 2014 at 02:21 
@citizenschallenge: 
Yes, “consensus” is a political idea, not a scientific one. Science doesn’t work through consensus, it works through the strict application of skepticism to necessary and sufficient falsifiable hypothesis statements. 
#1 – the verification of experiments, or observation of data, is not subject to consensus. CO2 has risen steadily for the past 17 years, while global average temperatures have had no statistically significant warming, no matter how many people wish to deny that. 
#2 – Medical “science” is a lot more primitive than you would believe. A sad amount of focus is put on epidemiological studies (observational studies), which leads to all kinds of false flags, causing treatment and medical advice that is actually *damaging* to humanity. Hormone replacement therapy and low-fat nutrition advice come immediately to mind. 
#3 – A “consensus” is poll of people where their opinions align. 
#4 – I’ll be a bit more specific -> in all fields of science, blindly accepting the “common understanding” is a negative. We should always be brutally skeptical of even our most cherished and deeply held beliefs. Without challenges to the “common understanding”, science simply does not progress. 
That being said, having a common understanding of the scientific method is *crucial* to the proper practice of science. Sadly, this isn’t generally the case in the AGW debate.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
krischel Says: July 21, 2014 at 02:21 -  
"Yes, “consensus” is a political idea, not a scientific one."
~ ~ ~ 

Do you actually believe that?
What's the point of designing reproducible experiments - 
if not a desire to find support in "consensus"?
~ ~ ~ 

Don't you appreciate that the "consensus" is nothing more than the "general agreement" among informed experts.

And that the consensus is always provisional in light of new and better information?

krischel's crazy making and “consensus”

I'm playing a little catch up here since I've been out of wifi range for days and am only within range for a short while, so this will remain slightly behind the conversation at http://ourchangingclimate.wordpress.com/2014/02/17/is-climate-science-falsifiable where K's taken the conversation from "null hypothesis" to "consensus".

krischel Says: July 21, 2014 at 02:21 
@citizenschallenge: 
Yes, “consensus” is a political idea, not a scientific one. Science doesn’t work http://ourchangingclimate.wordpress.com/2014/02/17/is-climate-science-falsifiable/#comment-26489 through consensus, it works through the strict application of skepticism to necessary and sufficient falsifiable hypothesis statements. 
#1 – the verification of experiments, or observation of data, is not subject to consensus. CO2 has risen steadily for the past 17 years, while global average temperatures have had no statistically significant warming, no matter how many people wish to deny that. 
#2 – Medical “science” is a lot more primitive than you would believe. A sad amount of focus is put on epidemiological studies (observational studies), which leads to all kinds of false flags, causing treatment and medical advice that is actually *damaging* to humanity. Hormone replacement therapy and low-fat nutrition advice come immediately to mind. 
#3 – A “consensus” is poll of people where their opinions align. 
#4 – I’ll be a bit more specific -> in all fields of science, blindly accepting the “common understanding” is a negative. We should always be brutally skeptical of even our most cherished and deeply held beliefs. Without challenges to the “common understanding”, science simply does not progress.That being said, having a common understanding of the scientific method is *crucial* to the proper practice of science. Sadly, this isn’t generally the case in the AGW debate.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ 
krischel Says: July 21, 2014 at 02:21 -  
"Yes, “consensus” is a political idea, not a scientific one. "
~ ~ ~ 

Do you actually believe that?
What's the point of designing reproducible experiments - 
if not a desire to find support in "consensus"?
~ ~ ~ 

Don't you appreciate that the "consensus" is nothing more than the "general agreement" among informed experts.

And that the consensus is always provisional in light of new and better information?

Ironically you denialist types turning this principle of "consensus" into some tar baby - is nothing but another ruthless profoundly cynical political strategy that has stonewalling as it's goal rather than good-faith learning.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~  

#1 Has nothing to do with consensus, because you refuse to acknowledge the warming of polar regions and ocean depths. - you have presented a cheap Argument from Ignorance.

#2 Why did you ignore the "consensus" question?  Merely complaining that medical sciences aren't perfect, get's no one anywhere.

Tell me, if you suffered severe bodily injury, would want to be taken to your favorite mechanic or your PhD philosophy sparing mates - or would you prefer to be dropped off in a certified Emergency Room?
Think the principle of "consensus" might have something to do with that choice?

#3 Is an example of the pure cynicism that is the lifeblood of the contrarian.  Trying to compare the process of learned folks who have expert level understanding and the conclusions they draw from their experiments and experiences - with the flakey civilian population who can be swayed by any well scripted soundbite, since they appear too mesmerized by Hollywood expectations to have any interest in actually understanding the fundamental of our planet's climate system.

#4 There's a big difference between "brutally honest" (which is a necessary and good thing when done in good-faith) and being a malicious vandal who uses lies of convenience (such as your #1) to confuse and stonewall - rather than to learn and move forward in our understanding.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
krischel Says: - July 17, 2014 at 08:02 
Did you actually read the climategate emails? The dirty tricks, lies, and attacks on reputable scientists came from the warmists :)
~ ~ ~
CC:  I already answered in the affirmative - yes I have read many of those emails.
Now, how about you sharing which of those emails you find most heinous?
Can you support that opinion with any facts?
Oh, and exactly who are these "reputable" scientists that were "attacked" and what did those "attacks" consist of?
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Krischel does a great job of avoiding direct responses, instead constantly layering in ever more layers of misrepresentation and avoidance.  So I invite anyone to respond to these simple questions I raise.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Wednesday, July 16, 2014

"Null Hypothesis" 101

I'm having a conversation with Krischel at Bart Verheggen's weblog.  It started with a guest post by Hans Custers' considering the question "is climate science falsifiable?" which has turned into an endless discussion pretty much held up by Krischel and his claims that somehow climate science hasn't and doesn't properly use the "Null Hypothesis".  Many have tried arguing with Krischel who defy all.  I admit this stuff gets over my head, but even without having a thorough understanding myself, I can catch evasions and inconsistencies and poor arguments.  There is a difference between a real expert explaining himself and a poser.

Still, I am into this for the dialogue and I've asked K to help me better understand his claims that climate science is somehow invalid for such and such a reason…


I started by expressing my basic understanding and we shall see where it goes from there:

Is Climate Science falsifiable?

By 
 Bart Verheggen'shttp://ourchangingclimate.wordpress.com/2014/02/17/is-climate-science-falsifiable/


July 17, 2014 at 07:23 {the following has been slightly edited and added to}
OK krischel help me out, 
I'm trying to study up on this "Null Hypothesis" 101, using:

Basic concepts of hypothesis testing
Handbook of Biological Statistics
http://udel.edu/~mcdonald/stathyptesting.html
~ ~ ~
Null Hypothesis Martyn Shuttleworth
https://explorable.com/null-hypothesis
~ ~ ~ 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Null_hypothesis
~ ~ ~
Sure, pretty basic stuff, but that's were understanding starts, with the basics.

In any event, krischel I'm trying to understanding this Null Hypothesis and how it's supposed to function regarding dynamic geophysical processes, process that can not be measured with absolute precision.

Seems to me Null Hypothesis is a statistical test that scientists use for very specific questions within specific parameters as part of gathering date and producing studies.

Seems to me the "consensus" is the result of thousands of small Null Hypotheses succeeding or failing and each providing another pixel of information.

I believe you try to get people to focus on the pixels in order to ignore the image.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Mind you I'm no scholar - I'm coming at this from a more worldly view - you see, I'm an old handyman, these days I'm constantly confronted with old homes and their nightmare situations of all varieties.  In other words, I feel like I live "Null Hypothesis situations" every time I'm on a job - so I think I know something about approaching unknown  situations where how I assess the situation and the choices I make, result in big differences in outcomes.

Then I read your evasions to Hans Custers/Bart Verheggen/Willard/Victor Venema...

In truth when reading your stuff all I hear is philosophizing with no connection to how the real world operates. That's why I keep saying you set impossible standards (so of course your expectations will never be met.)

Still, I'll listening to you if you're into sharing some critiques, comments, suggestions on the following specific questions and why they might or might not meet your expectations?  

How's this for a string of Null Hypotheses:

Our planet, by the good fortune of it's orbital local plus the stability afforded by it's partnership with our moon, evolved into a global heat distribution engine, infinitely complex, yet composed of basic and understandable components {Y?N}

These components follow fundamental understandable rules of behavior. {Y?N}

{Scientists know about the various drivers that influence our climate as the eons of time changes march by, perhaps not with absolute precision, but resolution short coming should not make us blind to trends and where they are taking us.}

GHG levels are but one of our climate's features - 
but GHGs is still a major driver that acts in concert with other "drivers". {Y?N}

Society has introduced geologically massive quantities of these GHGs into our thin atmosphere. {Y?N}
~ ~ ~

Here's a null hypothesis test to run some models on:
Warming a closed system will energize that system. {Y?N}

Energizing our planet's hydrological cycle and adding moisture to it will result in enhanced torrential rain and drought and wind events. {Y?N}

A warming global heat distribution engine will not impact the hydrological cycle of our planet - meaning there will be no change in historical weather patterns.  {Y?N}