"I Am, Therefore I Think" - A scientific reality. What does it means?

 

I received the following constructive response to some of my thoughts and have decided to share this latest effort to clarify my Earth Centrist perspective. 

Hi, Peter,

Many theists believe in evolution, viewing it as god’s means of creating humans, so evolution is a bit of a red herring in this debate.  We do have the concept of god in our minds, but that tells us nothing about whether there is a god or not.  We have the concepts of trees and unicorns; the former exist, the latter don’t.  We need further argumentation to make a case for or against god’s existence.

Regards,

Thank you for responding and engaging with my ideas.  

Your note invites some clarification.

This isn’t about lip service to evolution.

This is about our relationship with the thoughts we possess.

This is about taking Descartes' (pre-scientific) reduction of what we can known about the human condition, which he boiled down to: "I Think, Therefore I Am” - to a modern scientifically informed reduction of our actual human condition: "I Am, Therefore I Think."

We are evolved biological sensing creatures, product of a half billion years of Earth’s evolution - what that tells us is that our mind is produced by our body/brain interacting with the world.  (Solms, Damasio, Sapolsky, etc.)

This brings us to a realization that it isn't a question of whether Gods are real or not. 

It is about appreciating that God's are the product of our own human thoughts.

Meta-physical figments within our minds - outside the realm of physical world.

You write: "We do have the concept of god in our minds" - but that is exactly what begs the question: "How does an assumption of God become a Being of God?"

We know that trees exist because there's tons of independent data driven facts about trees, and you can touch them and cut them up and build with them.  But a horsie unicorn never makes it past an assumption since there isn't an iota of physical evidence for such a creature.

The cornerstone of appreciating our human condition starts with appreciating the Physical Reality ~ Human Mind divide.  The difference between biology and our consciousness.

In that light, God becomes a valid inhabitant of our human 'mindscape' - (the totality of our thoughts, feelings, understanding) - that is our meta-physical realm.

While realizing that Gods are not components of our physical reality, with its laws of nature, material elements, nor of Earth's geological biological pageant of evolution that created and sustains us.  

(This Earthly realm that we had better learn how to take into our hearts and minds and expectations fast, or face increasing environmental and social degradation as today's destructive extreme weather roulette and political insanity combines with humanity's self-absorbed nature and self-serving actions to speed humanity's final chapters.)

Thank you for making the space to allow me to share and discuss these questions.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I'm happy to share that the dialogue continues with a response from my friend, but I fear there was a misunderstanding, that I try to clarify with the following::

Hi, again, Peter,

Remember that the debate is about the existence of god (not the concept of god), so that’s what we need evidence for or against.  It doesn’t contribute to the debate simply to deny that god exists, since that just begs the question.  You have started to address the question by noting that there’s virtually no good evidence for god’s existence.  I agree with that, but many people don’t and they provide what they take to be good evidence.

Best,

Thank you for responding, I'd like to clarify.

 You wrote: "You have started to address the question by noting that there’s virtually no good evidence for god’s existence." 

However, what I state is that "God is a product of our own consciousness, which is a product of our own biological body/brain, which is a product of Earth's physical biological evolution.   

And that our Gods belong to the meta-physical realm of our thoughts - not to the physical reality of this material planet's processes.

Starts with a foundational appreciation for the:  The Physical Reality ~ Human Mind divide.

I hope this helps clarify my position.  Thanks again for the dialogue.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Hi,

Your response simply begs the question rather than answering it.  You haven’t engaged with the debate yet.  What is your evidence that there is no god outside our consciousness? 

Thank you professor,

I hope I'm not getting on your nerves.  Because I'm enjoying this and believe I have some ideas worth defending and I like your pushback.  It gives me something to work with.

Here goes,

You haven’t engaged with the debate yet.  

You mean the two thousand year old never-ending debate?  Is God real?

How we frame our questions limits what they can teach us.

I’ll concede I wasn’t out to figure out God, near as much as being out to figure out Me.  Along the seven decades of engaged living, science fact based learning and introspective thinking, I discovered our Gods (as are all of our thoughts, etc) are self created by our body/brain engaged in living, and I can’t understand why that doesn’t get discussed up front.  (The same is true of all other biological creatures, scale and complexity changes, still all of them need to be aware, process, act.)

Are we talking about a personal God?  

Okay, sure personal Gods certainly do exist.  The point is that we are their creators.  It explains why our God’s fit our personality so well.

The key point is, growing to appreciate that our own body/brain/experiences are what create our personal God, along with all of our other conceptions.  

 

What is your evidence that there is no god outside our consciousness? 

 (For the state of current science regarding consciousness see: Solms, Damasio, Sapolsky, etc.) 

Outside of our consciousness, there’s nothing but biology and physical reality engaged in its dynamic dances - our only contact with that realm is through the membranes of our senses-body-brain, projecting it’s best impressions onto our living minds, (consciousness, spirit, soul, awareness.)

Suppose there may be a God out there within the fabric of physical reality, it would be lightyears beyond human understanding - so what’s all the handwringing for?

By that point, what are we asking for anymore?   

 

Rather than fussing about a vague sense of god, I think it would be better to spend our energy pondering how to get people to think about, and start caring for, this planet Earth that created us and that we are destroying?

I myself when looking at micro videos and the teaming complexity, I know it’s overwhelming and a feeling of something creeps in - nothing wrong with that - the wonder and mystery and jaw dropping functioning complexity.  Understand it for what it is, a thought, a feeling, entertaining an idea - remain humble and aware of how little we do know and that we are bascially animals, alotted our share of time and then we die back into Earth.  

God means nothing to me one way or the other, it is the wonder, and the magic of synchronicity as life takes us where it will, the grand mysteries, those are what hold meaning and can enthrall me for a lifetime. 

As an aside, I had an extraordinary early life experience that replaced the notion of God, with a notion of “a speck of dust that wanted to be more”.  It put a whole different spin on my life.  So I was never as deeply invested in the God questions as others seem to be.  

Thank you again for your time,

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Philosophy Club - Is Belief in God Rational?

 It seems pointless for me to be writing about climate science anymore. Our runway is receding as we rush forward peddle-to-the-metal.  We are entering the free fall zone - we've put extreme destructive weather roulette in charge of how our future unfolds.  

Rather than get consumed by the dark side, my focus has pulled in to a more personal, introspective place.  With four grandchildren entering my life over the past five years, I'm more into reminiscing about past times and lessons learned during my 69 adventurous years, and counting.  Of course, I will continue striving to explain my apparently rather unique Earth Centrist perspective.  

I also participate in a Philosophy Club and after a recent meeting I was inspired to write the following for our local weekly paper.

Dear Editor,

I should be going to bed, but my head is full of dancing memories from this evening’s panel discussion that had four FLC professors debating the question: “Is belief in God rational?”  Excellent stories told and arguments offered, claims made and responded to with counterclaims and more questions, as words upon words cascaded over each other.  

Not for the first time. I found myself wondering, if philosophy’s goal is to help us understand, why the love for adding layers upon layers of creative complexity and hairsplitting that often obscures the fundamentals?  After all, it is the simple fundamentals that make a coherent understanding possible? 

Please understand I come at this God question from a different, and apparently somewhat unique Earth Centrist, science respecting, bottom up, evolutionary perspective that I’d like to share with you.

Is Belief in God Rational?

To me, that framing feels like a trick question of sorts

God is a belief in itself.

God is not a Thing.

Regarding people’s faith in a God - I ask, how does an assumption of God get transmuted into a Thing?

Is a belief in a belief rational?  ( Is faith rational? )

I’d say sure, from an evolutionary and pragmatic societal perspective, there are a host of reasons faith in meta-physical beliefs could and does bring benefits to believers. 

Regarding what God is, that needs to start with resolving the ageless question, “Who Am I?”  

Fact is, I, we, are evolved biological animals, the product of half a billion unbroken years of Earth’s processes.  

From the beginning all creatures have required a degree of awareness, processing and action abilities, each according to their individual biological complexity and kind.  Ours is simply the most advanced mind, thanks to our incredible evolved body and its experiences.

Still, our thoughts are the interior reflection of our body communicating with itself as it processes incoming information from within and outside. (See Drs. Solms, Damasio, Sapolski, etc. for details.)  It is our body and brain interacting with physical reality that produces our mind, our sense of self, all our thoughts - collectively our Mindscape.  

The inevitable conclusion from the full scope of relevant biological/physical sciences is that consciousness is not a thing, it is an interaction.  Our Consciousness is produced in the living moment by our living body.

As with the dynamo that stops producing electricity when it stops spinning - so too when our body stops living, our mind/consciousness ceases to be produced, after that, we become memories within those we leave behind.

It seems to me self-evident from the above that our God’s must be a product of our thoughts, which in turn, are driven by personal biological imperatives, needs, ego, bias, etc.  

The Hard Problem is figuring out why such a straightforward observation - that our body/brain interacting with the world produces our mind - is so assiduously avoided.

Our Gods are very real, still we should be very clear, our Gods belong to the meta-physical realm.  

Gods are not part of this physical reality that makes up the biology of our bodies, nor the substance of this miracle planet Earth that created us to begin with, along with the rules all of Earth’s nature operates under.

Key concepts:  Appreciating the ‘Physical Reality ~ Human Mind divide.’

Appreciating that our living body produces our thoughts, and that our Gods are born from within our own ego-centric thoughts. 

***

The other question discussed was: “Does Morality Require God?”  

How can it, if we create our own Gods? 

For me, that realization puts the responsibility right back upon us humans, collectively and individually.

 

 

John F. Kennedy, Reflecting on Nov 22,1963 some 61 years later

 On this day in 1963, at about the time I’m typing this, recess was over for the younger kids at John J. Audubon elementary school. I found myself climbing back up the stairs to my third grade classroom when I overheard an older boy coming down the stairs for their recess time. He was telling his friend, “did you hear, they shot the president.”

My parents being civic and interested in the politics and world affairs, plus proud Democrats, we knew all about our President. For my sibs, along with millions of other Americans back then, the Kennedy’s were like distant relatives, meaning it was personal - and the words were like a punch in the belly. Reinforced by our sad struggling teacher explaining what was being broadcast on the news and informed us school was over for that day and that we should go home to our families. We left school and all of us walked back home to be with our parents.

Dear Sabine Hossenfelder, why blame climate scientists for the politicization?

 

Dear Sabina Hossenfelder, 

I’ve been watching your YouTube videos for a while and for the most part, I enjoy them, because I love the topics, your informative sharp style, and you were refreshingly free of red flags. As I became a fan, I’ll admit I got some weird vicarious kick at discovering you were born in Frankfurt am Main during the time I was living there, during my 3 years in BRD & CH.

Then you started talking about climate scientists, people I’ve enthusiastically followed and learned from since my high school science classes (grad of ’73), and a topic I have closely followed for over a half century since.  Now, listening to you harp on climate scientists, I do see red flags cropping up, which I feel obligated to share as far and wide as my meager efforts will afford, via an email and posting at my blogs.

Your July 20th, “Fossil Fuels Don’t Come From Fossils? Tucker Carlson Fact Check” brought my feelings to a boil.  Now I want to do a little fact checking of your attitude and words, along with their unfortunate implications, in a society where determined willful ignorance runs rampant.

Fossil Fuels Don’t Come From Fossils? Tucker Carlson Fact Check

Sabine Hossenfelder - July 20, 2024 

5:44

“The world is full of untruth and half truth, right that's the whole problem right.”

8:14

"… Dr. Soon then goes on to complain about how climate scientists reacted to the opening statement from Al Jaber at the COP meeting earlier this year.

In the beginning of this cop 28 meeting,  the chairman, …  was saying that ‘there's no scientific reasoning to say that we should phase out fossil fuels.’ “

“He’s right. But then he backed off because of all this, baa-baa. …”

“There's no scientific reasoning to say that we should phase out fossil fuel.”

This isn’t an academic argument.  This is the stuff of rhetorical gamesmanship.    

No parameters, no nuances.  Give it a think Sabina. 

 

In Defense of Women. postcard advocacy campaign v.3

 I haven't written much on our climate situation because basically it's become too damned depressing.  Still I haven't totally disengaged,  the future unfolds slowly, so we must still be concerned with making this world a better place.  Even if the long term outlook doesn't bear speaking about, we are here living out our day to days now - so issues such a woman's right to self defense and sovereignty over her own body - still matter and are worth struggling for.  My effort started with the previous post, and has progressed through version.2 and a version.3.

In defense of women.  

A postcard advocacy campaign.

I have a dream that someday our society can learn to recognize and acknowledge the woman, above all others, possesses the situational awareness, and the moral, ethical, and legal standing to decide the future of the growing life within herself.

I myself can never figure out how/why people can be so cold and ruthless as to deny a woman those fundamental dignities, though I’ve spend decades trying.  As a man with a wife and children and grandchildren, including caretaking infants and toddlers, whom I get along with quite well I might add, it matters to me that there’s been so much manufactured misunderstanding.

That’s why I've taken the challenge to refine my personal argument “In Defense of Women”.

It took a while, you know how it goes, rewrite, rewrite, rewrite, now after 250@v.1 (Nov 6, $109) and 1000@v.2 (Jan 24, $155).   I do believe v.3 finally says all I want to share, as concise and well as I can.  Last month I ordered up 2,000 postcards (at $220).  Postage Stamps $0.53@

In Defense of Women, v.3

 

Now I’m hoping, I’m asking, I’ll even plead, for some help with purchasing postage stamps so I can broadcast these thoughts, by sending out these postcards in defense of a woman's right to self defense and sovereignty over her own body.  

I’m starting to address the postcards, first to various woman’s organizations, followed by Democratic Party county offices in key states, various reporters and news agencies, among others, (Help with some stamps and I’ll send them to any addresses you ask me to.).  After the election I want to send one to all 119th Congressional US Senators and Representatives.  With a little luck, add a little ammo to the coming debates.

I may be a man of big dreams, but modest means.  Without help for some folks who support these ideas I’m striving to share, the postcards will only be trickling out.  Please help me turn up the volume.

If we aren’t changing minds, we are losing.

Thank you, Peter Miesler

Email: Citizenschallenge at gmail

Please help at GoFundMe

In Defense of Women, Postcard Activism - Can you help me?

 

 Please

In Defense of Women, Postcard Activism

Can you help?

 

I believe there are too many misinformed individuals out there, and that Democrats need to work harder at gaining and sharing basic solid information and arguments.

It would help enable the choir to become more persuasive in our regular interactions and discussion with people, friends, & family.  After all, if we aren’t changing minds, we are losing.

I believe that the better we can verbalize the issues, the easier it is to engage and stand up for justice.  The better our chances to help evolve people’s thinking on issues that matter.

Diary Dec 31, 2023 - Reflections on this New Year's Eve.

Saying good-bye to 2023.  

Another year older and still working towards that elusive final draft of my Earth Centrist perspective.  I've been spending five years digesting the concept and the evidence behind it, I've written long articles and short bullet points, fielded some push and a lot of handwaving and slammed doors - there's only so many ways to refine something so fundamental and straightforward and that elusive final draft of my Earth Centrist perspective summary, is just around the corner, as they say.  

I have been taking the discussion online at CFI Forum (Center for Inquiry) a small discussion board and have been receiving interesting feedback and pushback.  I'm also participating in a college philosophy club.  Then, this past July I wrote up a dialogue with a short book, Buddha Science, by Daut.

It made for a nice contrast to dealing with Don Hoffman's ideas, in that I agree with much that Daut wrote, but I do come at it from a very different evolutionary biological bottom up perspective and I enjoyed this excuse to review and try to enunciate my Earth Centrist concept in a more constructive atmosphere.

Science has learned a great deal about Evolution, our animal biology, and also consciousness across the entire animal kingdom.  Philosophers and the general public would do good to lay to rest old brainteasers and to catch up on the significance of current scientific biological evolutionary breakthroughs.

This Earth Centrist writing project has been dedicated to people who appreciate nature and evolution and scientific understanding about how evolution weaves us together with all other living beings on this planet.  

Which includes a deep appreciation for how our body/brain produces consciousness, as in, the inside reflection of our body communicating with itself (see Dr.Solms) and realizing how that offers keys to better understanding our own endless flesh vs spirit conflicts.

I'm looking to connect with people for whom a notion such as "Appreciating the Human Mind ~ Physical Reality divide" makes sense and who are unfazed by recognizing themselves as evolved biological thinking creatures, products of Earth's processes. People, who glory in the Pageant of Evolution that created our body and love learning from serious scientific efforts.

These aren't irrelevant trifles, they are keys to a more straightforward understanding of those dogged questions: Who am I?  Why am I here?  Why doesn't my body do what I tell it to?