Sunday, November 1, 2015

Part 3 - Debating ClimateDepot fan re greenhouse physics

Alrightie then, time to get back to my debate with Will H the ClimateDepot acolyte.  I'll give him credit he held up a spirited debate in the comments of my first post, even if he did constantly repeat himself while steadfastly ignoring all the information I tried offering.  His next to last couple comments I held in moderation since I didn't have the time and I believed they deserved their own posts as I wrap up this particular debate. I'm splitting this comment into two because I'm using this opportunity to share the extensive outline of Professor Archer's excellent online lecture series explaining the fundamentals of global warming - "Global Warming - Understanding the Forecast" / University of Chicago.

Will H.  at 5:00 PM, Oct 26, 2015
Will wrote: "Concerning: "But you do realize both processes are at work? Right?" You already yourself posted an excerpt form a Wikipedia article which agrees with me. The warming of a real greenhouse is all explained by a convective greenhouse effect and not a radiative greenhouse effect. Experiments were performed near the beginning of the 20th century that showed that whether the glass passed or did not pass LWIR radiation did not effect the temperature in a greenhouse. There is no radiant greenhouse effect. "

Will won't grasp the fact that it is understanding our atmosphere's gases and their interactions with the sun's incoming radiation and outgoing infrared radiation - along with their impact on Earth's climate conditions - that's the critical issue.

He'd rather play gotcha with silly analogies that ignore real world interactions.  As for claiming "there is no radiant greenhouse effect", how in the world does Will think the sun's heat get's into the greenhouse to begin with?  

Will continued:  "I watched the videos concerning climate history. It is true that warmer climates coincide with increased CO2 in the atmosphere. It is well known that warmer water cannot hold as much CO2 so there is a reason for it." 

A fanciful combination of facts, but Will's implication underscores his disconnect from the real physics of the world out there.  Yes warmer water holds slightly less CO2, but our increasing atmospheric concentrations far outweighs the ocean's slight reduction in holding capacity.  It seems Will expects us to ignore that society is injecting over 2 gigatons month after month after month.
(Will is also lost when it comes to appreciating the difference between deep geologic time and the human societal time frames current AGW is occurring within.)    
Also regarding the video, it's worth pointing out that Will seems to have missed the fact that Dr. Alley is a leading expert in this field.  His videoed talk was in essence a report on current understanding and the evidence supporting that learned consensus.  It's not something to brush off, it's something to listen to, chew on, digest, and learn from!  

Tragically today most people have zero interest in or appreciation for how our Earth evolved, or how our complex society got here and what all keeps it going, let alone take the time to learn about the science they are attacking.  

Here's Professor Alley's talk for those who may be curious:

Richard Alley - 4.6 Billion Years of Earth’s Climate History: The Role of CO2 

Published on Jun 1, 2015 by the National Academy of Sciences

NAS member Richard Alley presents on 4.6 Billion Years of Earth’s Climate History: The Role of CO2, during the Symposium—At the National Academy of Sciences 152nd Annual Meeting.

Will then asserts:
"There is no real evidence that the additional CO2 adds to the warming..."
(I'm saving the remainder of Will's comment for my next post so I can devote the rest this post to Professor David Archer's course on global warming.) 

This is an absurd claim which ignores information in links I've offered in previous comments and freely available to any seriously curious student (Such as these direct measurements of CO2's effect). 

What baffles me is where do folks get off being so self-certain of their personal analysis?  Come on, people spend decades learning these details.  Sadly Will doesn't yet appreciate his sort of "revelation" happen to every enthusiastic Freshman.  It's a part of exploring new discoveries and being all-around skeptical.  But, serious students are also aware that they have lots to learn and are thirsty for new information to better inform their understanding.

Will and the science-sceptical crowd on the other hand, embrace their childish interpretations with steadfast certitude regardless how obviously superficial their understanding is - nor how much they must ignore to cling on to their false notions.

Here Will and pals, behold the breath of understanding you need to thoroughly digest before you have any justification whatsoever to disparage let alone reject expert explanations.  

"Global Warming - Understanding the Forecast"
David Archer - University of Chicago

(Or as I would describe it - Understanding the physics of our global heat and moisture distribution engine)

Global Warming: Understanding the Forecast is a comprehensive introduction to all aspects of global warming. Written in an accessible way, and assuming no specialist prior knowledge, this book examines the processes that control climate change and climate stability, from the distant past to the distant future.


Classroom format (~45 minutes chapters)

Chapter 1  Intro

Topical Coursera format

Topical Coursera format 

Topical Coursera format 

Topical Coursera format

Topical Coursera format 

Topical Coursera format

Topical Coursera format

Topical Coursera format

Topical Coursera format

Topical Coursera format

Topical Coursera format

Chapter 12  Six Degrees

Topical Coursera format

Topical Coursera format

On-line interactive computer models allow you to play with the physics and chemistry behind the global warming forecast.

Global Warming: The Science of Climate Change is running now on Coursera, a not-for-profit education company that partners with the top universities and organizations in the world to offer courses online for anyone to take, for free. The video lectures have been completely redone in a punchy 2-10 minute format, with revamped exercises using the updated online models interspersed throughout.

Open Climate 101 brings the experience of University of Chicago class PHSC13400, part of our "core" science curriculum for non-science major undergraduates based on this text, to the internet at large. However, this class seems supplanted by the updated content in the Coursera class (above), so unless lots of people request otherwise, Open Climate 101 will shut down on or about Jan 1, 2014.

Videos of lectures, both in ~45 minute classroom format (recorded Fall, 2009, University of Chicago), and in a 2-12 minute topical format intended for on-line learning (recorded Summer, 2013).

Then again, one can get an easier, though simpler understanding at the website of National Center for Atmospheric Research/University Corporation for Atmospheric Research internet education program.

Here's another excellent source for accessing the latest in scientific studies and papers, geared towards the lay-person.

Has the greenhouse effect been falsified?

Here's an interesting recent study result:

First Direct Evidence that Rising CO2 is Heating Up the Earth   
By Jenna Iacurci | Nature World News